09.2003.
The celebrated
journalist, Juan Gonzalez, says that as many as perhaps 1,000 Iraqis a week are dying
across Iraq, while NYT and other media are busy highlighting the deaths of American
soldiers. DEMOCRACY
NOW
Juan
Gonzalez: Robert Fisk, this is Juan Gonzales here with Amy. In speaking about civilian
casualties, you've been doing several articles now on the story that is not being covered
at all, especially here in the United States, which is the civilian toll, the lives being
lost every day in Iraq as result of the U.S. occupation. Could you tell us a little bit
about that? Robert Fisk: Yes. I started doing this story here because, I'm doing series of
articles, because I was very struck by an article that appeared in the New York Times last
week that talked about the terrible toll of casualties over the summer months.
It was
paragraph three before I realized that the terrible toll applied only to 72 American
soldiers in this country. And thousands of Iraqis civilians are dying by gunfire and other
forms of violence in this country since April 9th, because of the anarchy and chaos let loose
after the 'liberation' of Baghdad. Again we don't need to be romantic about Saddam.
It was
his government that committed the crimes before the war. It's now Iraqis who are
committing the crimes after the war, but the real problem is that there is no security,
and what is happening is an absolute slaughter every night of Iraqi people, either
murdered in revenge killings by thieves, gunned down at American checkpoints by
trigger-happy U.S. soldiers, involved in family feuds. I've just come, I speak to you now
from a mortuary in Baghdad. They've just taken in 21 gunshot victims dead. I spoke to five
of the bereaved families, all shot down with people trying to steal their cars or killed
by thieves in the night, or killed in killings which were by persons unknown. Weaponry is
flourishing here.
You
hear the shooting every night. The whole of Baghdad is full of gunfire. I went to one
hospital where the mortuary attendant told me that almost 40% of the total dead that come
in to their mortuary are killed at U.S. checkpoints by soldiers, either because the cars approached
too quickly to the checkpoints or because American troops come under fire and fire back at
the civilians in the area without making direct contact with whoever is their aggressor.
One occasion recently for example, four days ago a woman and her child were brought dead
to the hospital after they were killed by U.S. forces who opened fire at people who were
shooting in the air at a wedding party. Over and over again this happens.
We had
case about six weeks ago which I personally investigated, in which two men got too close,
drove up to a U.S. checkpoint, it wasn't a usual check point, just a piece of barbed wire
thrown across the road in a very poor suburb of Baghdad. The Americans opened fire at the
car. When the car was burned out, I counted around 23 bullet holes in it. The bullets
caught fire to the petrol, and I don't know if they were still alive or not, but the two passengers,
both males were burned alive. They were burned to death anyway. I assume one of them or
two may have survived as the car was burning. As the car was on fire, according to those
who saw it happen, the Americans packed up and abandoned their checkpoint. I went to the mortuary
again afterwards and found these two skeletons with burned flesh, their identity papers
long ago consumed by the fire. The car itself, and the registration plate had melted into
the road. So again, two Iraqis families were waiting that night for loved ones who would never
come home.
Juan
Gonzalez: In one of your articles, Robert, you estimate that as many as perhaps 1,000
Iraqis a week are dying across the country, but that also you have trouble getting to the
hospitals, the occupation are not allowing journalists or making it difficult for
journalists to get to hospitals?
Robert
Fisk: Absolutely. The coalition provisional authorities, the occupational authorities call
themselves that, have told through the Ministry of Health, the new Ministry of Health
under the C.P.A. here who, of course works for the occupational authorities, that
journalists are not allowed to go to hospitals unless they have official permission from
the new ministers, who of course work for the occupation authorities.
This
means we're not in theory supposed to find out the figures. In fact we can get into the
hospitals, because we know many of the doctors or there are other ways in, and usually the
security guards are very sympathetic towards us. They're Iraqi. They want us to tell the
story of this great tragedy for the Iraqis. Yesterday, for example, the Baghdad city
morgue which I just spent six hours in, yesterday they had 21 dead of whom 12 were killed
by gunfire. This morning they had another five by 10:00 a.m., Baghdad time. If you add
that up, and you turn into it a month of killings, you remember that there's 20 dead a day
of gunfire being brought even to the Najaf cemetery, which is about 200 miles south of
Baghdad who are killed by violence, not just of course by the Americans but family revenge
killings, shootings by thieves, people trying to stop looters and get killed by accident
caught in crossfire, you're talking at least 1,000 Iraqis dying every week.
But of
course it's impossible, not just because of the restrictions placed on journalists going
to the hospitals, but it's impossible to go to every hospital an every city of Iraq every
morning and put together the death toll. But it's extraordinary. I had one case this
morning, a young man, only son of a Shiite from the very poorest area of Baghdad had been
killed in his door, no one knew why. Four very, very angry Shiites arrived with his
body at the mortuary, one of them in militia uniforms, I think he was a member of the so
called Badr brigade. 'This is because there is no security.
America
doesn't want us to have security. It wants to divide our society. We won't allow it. We
will explode ourselves against the Americans,' he said, he was talking about suicide
bombers, This is a Shiite, not a Sunni from the Sunni Triangle. So what is happening is
that there is a growing feeling among Iraqis, at least those who are politically inclined,
that the Americans do not want to stop the insecurity. Among those Iraqis who don't take
such a conspiratorial view, there is a milder, but in my opinion, quite devastating view
or attitude, that the Americans don't really care very much about the Iraqis. They might
talk about bringing democracy, liberating them. But they care only about western soldiers
who are killed. They don't really care about the lives of ordinary Iraqis.
And
over and over again, we've had examples of people shot by the Americans at checkpoints,
and the Americans have not even bothered to find out who they shot down, who they killed,
who they wounded. They're not on the streets at night. We had one very sad case the other
day of man whose family I spoke to, who did survive, he was a night watchman of a
building, his factory was attacked by looters. He fired back at the looters, and the
Americans turned up and shot him in the chest. He's now just undergone two days ago his
second operation to save his life. But he hasn't once been visited by American forces.
No one
said, sorry. No one says, would you like some compensation, we can help you. In some cases
we do know, especially in outlying and very tough areas, the Americans and other western
forces have offered and given money, compensation to families of those they killed. I
think the Americans were doing that to the policeman, at least eight of whom were killed
by U.S. third infantry division near Fallujah on Friday of last week, Thursday of last
week.
Outrageously
for a long time the Americans just said they had no information about the killings. Long
after we'd gone there and established that it was all U.S. ammunition from an infantry
unit that was used to kill the policeman. At one point I found a policeman's teeth and
brains beside the road. Had they been American brains and teeth, I don't think they
wouldn't have been left there.
It's
this overall feeling not so much, and I don't go along with conspiracy theories that the
U.S. wants a civil war, wants to divide people, wants violence, no. Because they also
become victims on it there on an infinitesimally smaller scale than Iraqis. But Americans
just don't really care about Iraqis. And that is the cancer that is eating into this
society now
|